Tuesday, December 9, 2008

Handling God's Word With Love

Eric Ramseur wroteat 6:59pm on December 6th, 2008
quick question... I don't know much about the Community Church, but are the baptisms that are done for the forgiveness of sins?

(Austin Peay) wroteat 8:04pm on December 7th, 2008
No, my friend, it is an outward expression of obedience and acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord and Savior of our lives and symbolizes the death, the burial, and the resurrection. I hope that clarifies things, they've all received the Lord's forgiveness prior to baptism, at least as far as I understand.

Eric Ramseur wroteat 4:51pm yesterday
Where's that verse that says that you receive forgiveness prior to baptism?
(Austin Peay) wroteat 8:40pm yesterday
Champ, for those who believe... 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace Psalm 103:12 It is possible for the Lord to look at us without seeing our sins because when he forgave us, he removed our sins as far as the east is from the west. It is by faith that we receive our forgiveness faith that Jesus has paid the ultimate price, that he has torn the veil that separates man from God,James 2:20 ...faith without deeds is useless... Once more baptism, is an outward expression of our faith, in which we openly proclaim that we believe Jesus is our Lord and Saviour, that Jesus is the Christ. There is nothing we can do to be saved and truly it's only by our faith in Christ that we are redeemed. The important thing is this, It's an outward expression of our faith.

Eric Ramseur wroteat 10:00pm yesterday
I'm not saying that baptism isn't an expression of faith. I'm just saying that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16). 1 Peter 3:18-21 is the entire context where we see that baptism now saves through the resurrection of Christ. Jesus says that His blood is poured out for the forgiveness of sins and Acts 2:38 uses the same language when it says that they should repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. I totally agree that we are saved by our faith, but our faith compels us to be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins when we die to sin (Romans 6:3-4) in the like-manner of Christ's death which is baptism where we clothe ourselves with Christ (Galatians 3:26-27). Acts 16:30-34 tells of a man who asked what he must do to be saved. They told him to believe. And within the hour he and his household were baptized... only after that does it say that they believed.

Eric Ramseur wroteat 10:06pm yesterday
The book of Psalms has no bearing on NT Christianity as far as the plan for salvation. They had a different plan to be saved. I keep hearing it is by faith alone that we receive our forgiveness, well why does it say that baptism saves and that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins along with repentance?
(Austin Peay) wroteat 8:08am
Champ, Romans 4:1-7 , To say that I've been baptized and therefore am saved is to say that I've obtained my salvation by my own act, which clearly cannot be done, for as with Abraham, our father of faith who believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness, it is through our belief, our faith and not just by baptism alone, that we are saved, baptism alone does not save, But saving faith in-which there takes place an earnest repentance from sin. Why did he get baptized, why did the ethopian want to be baptized was it that he was baptized and then believed or was it that he believed and then received? None the less you're right and I believe now we're just splitting hairs. I Corinthians 3:6-7

Eric Ramseur wroteat 4:24pm
Baptism is not something that you do. It is something that is done to you. Be baptized/immersed is passive and it is imperative. So we can see that it is something that had to be done and it was something that was done to them in Acts 2. Of course you have to believe first or else baptism means absolutely nothing, whether you believe it's an outward sign or you think it's for salvation. That's why Jesus says he who has believed and has been baptized will be saved, but he who disbelieves shall be condemned. He doesn't have to say anything about baptism in that last clause, because if you don't believe then you wont be baptized. We can't make NT application with an OT subject when it comes to salvation. Abraham made animal sacrifices... we don't, because Christ is our sacrifice. I'm not saying that it is baptism alone that saves, nor is it our faith alone. Of course the ethopian believed, but he was preached Jesus and from that he knew that he had to be baptized by someone else.

Eric Ramseur wroteat 4:25pm
I'm not saying this to be facetious at all, but when you said I was right and now we're splitting hairs... what was I right about?

(Austin Peay) wroteat 4:55pm
1 Peter 3:18-21 if it is said in the word than I'll agree with you on that, look to be honest i'm not in the mood right now, I concede, you are a great theologian and know what and how to be saved I hope that you apply it and ultimately advance the kingdom of God :)

Eric Ramseur wroteat 5:26pm
I'm really sorry if I've come off haughty or arrogant or anything nonconducive to a Christian walk. That was not my intention at all. I am just extremely concerned about baptisms and the reasons behind them. So, if I've offended you in any kind of way or put you in a bad mood I apologize sincerely.


I have a lot to learn.


Jon Warnes said...

Your love for the Lord is SO apparent. Thank you for defending The Faith through the grace and knowledge of our Savior. I'm proud to be side by side with you in 'battle'.

Eric Ramseur said...

That means a whole lot Jon. Thank you for being such a good example of a what a true father is. You're who I think about when I get discouraged.

Wes T. Bowker said...

I appreciate this conversation for several reasons...

1. Unlike the majority of doctrinal disagreements that we may have with our brethren and non-brethren, none other is so vital, so begging to be settled. This is what its all about.
The means of salvation as made possible by Jesus Christ.

2. I am unfamiliar with your respondent, but I must say that he handled himself with decency and honor. Well informed, even if perhaps misinformed.

3. You make me so proud standing your ground in such a manner. Humble yet strong, asking more so than telling. God is very liberal in several instances about "Seeking Him" or "Seeking His Son". Obviously, seeking brings about discovery which brings about knowledge. In this instance you are "Seeking", and the funny thing is although you approach the issue as a student, you become the teacher if for no other reason but encouraging another to Seek and Discover the truth for themselves.

Yes. well done indeed.

>Disclaimer<: Don't get a big head though! As your older brother I am commissioned to keep you level headed, but I am proud of you. I look forward to locking minds with you in a few days.

J. Michael Hite said...

This was a great conversation and I too commend you for your stance in attempting to reach this person. I do have to ask whether you have his permission to post his name and a link to him regarding this conversation? You may be setting him up for a number of emails or posts without him knowing it.

Next time, you might want to keep his name anonymous and just include the conversation.

Eric Ramseur said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eric Ramseur said...

I made sure it was alright for me to post it, but you're right, I'm going to delete his name. Thanks Mike